Blacks Only!
Posted by Rich...! under Uncategorized on July 27 2005 at 8:19 PMSo today I had a debate with a 20-something black businessman that I (otherwise) have a lot of respect for.
He’s the member of a golf club of sorts, basically speaking, this club gets sponsorship from several high profile companies that allows them to fly to, and play at courses that they perhaps otherwise wouldn’t be able to play at. He calls this a charity.
There’s entry criteria to this club:
"You must be black!"
"Why?" I asked him.
"We’re previously disadvantaged." He replied.
"So, if a young, black, successful third-generation, Oxford educated Brit, showed up and waned to join, you’d refuse him on the grounds that he’s not previously disadvantaged?"
"No," he laughed, "we have one of those in the club already."
This is just plain wrong. If people behave like this, we’re taking two steps back. No questions.
What upsets me more though, is the corporate sponsorship that’s getting raised, and the companies supporting this blatant racism. Names (big names) were mentioned but not verified, but if I it turns out to be true, you’ll hear about it.
Worst thing is, this well-educated guy, cant see anything wrong with the whole thing.
That’s scary shit…!
Update: The chairman of the above mentioned golf club has added his comments.
July 27th, 2005 at 8:56 pm
Ahhh. Equality.
July 27th, 2005 at 10:10 pm
The pendulum swings.
Of course it’s wrong, but inevitable. And it’s not just happening in golf clubs (which, with all due respect (pffft) have always been bastions of sexism so why complain now that they’ve extended their conservatism to race as well…?). It’s being legislated: keep an eye on the BBBEE bills coming through.
Welcome to the new South Africa. You didn’t really think it was going to be that easy did you….?
July 28th, 2005 at 5:31 am
You may have a point there Riversprite, I’d be more worried, but yeah, it’s only golf…!
July 28th, 2005 at 7:15 am
A Luta (dis)continua!
Hi Rich – told you I’d cheer along. This struck me as wrong as well – but for more reasons than the obvious and dastardly racism. (My much maligned forebears would respond with respond with a “Told you so, now can we have our country back”) What really gets me is the shameless cashing in of their blackness and the moral high ground that Nelson & co sacrificed so much for. My dad used to work for a prominent (black) political figure and alsway spoke highly of the mans morals and incorruptability – that he even sent gifts back with an apology that he cannot be seen to be partial. What we see here is a bunch of people openly soliciting and selling their (future) influence. Worse – based on the colour of their skins. Worse – after a lengthy debate on the dubious ethics at play here we seemed to make no impression whatsoever. The capitalist instinct is just too strong… which might not be a bad thing…hmmm… lemme think…Anyway: The struggle is dead. Long live the struggle!
July 28th, 2005 at 8:40 am
If it was fly-fishing…
grrr…
July 28th, 2005 at 9:18 am
That excuse is getting old. And the majority of South Africans are getting tired of hearing it. We as whites are previously disadvantaged too, for having our ancestors make wrong decisions for us and placing us in the position we are faced with now. It’s not fair. This country needs a slap on the ass and a really stong cup of coffee. Wake up SA, wake up.
July 28th, 2005 at 9:30 am
If my ilk and I had personally spent the last few decades being systematically impoverished, abused, murdered and ostracized premised on nothing more than my skin colour – I would probably be determined to wreak havoc and vengeance on my oppressors the moment the tables turned.
In SA the “previously disadvantaged” (read as formerly denied everything, including the right to live, flat out) seek merely to speed up their rise to power, wealth, education and success, sans vindicatory violence against us whites.
Sweet.
Have your golf club lads. Enjoy a tax sponsored Mercedes. Live it up!
I would.
July 28th, 2005 at 11:53 am
I completely agree with the fact that this excuse has become old! make-up people, it’s now 15 years after the official demolishing of apartheid … and you’re STILL whinning? how much more should WE give you?
you want “YOUR” country back? just remember who brought this country from the state of animal skins and cattle farming to where it is now …
July 28th, 2005 at 12:42 pm
We (the white devils) came here and destroyed *their* way of life with religion, sanitation, medicine, philosophy, *the wheel* and technology… I can accept that, and I wouldn’t mind living in the bush without worries about traffic and pollution either… If that is however how they want to live, then surely the comfort of a Mercedes Benz is far too white for them…
It is fucking petty to still bitch about apartheid and oppression after 15 years without apartheid and 10 years of democracy. How long does it take to complete high school? 12 years? Why the fuck do we still have BE? Why still bitch, you’ve had your 12 years to get an education. I can bet you that there aren’t any street sweeping black people in their golf club… I bet that if I sent a homeless black person to your golf club, you wouldn’t let him in. Most people who bitch about apartheid weren’t even BORN when it still existed.
Fuck off with your equality, and your democracy! If I were to start a holiday resort for WHITES ONLY, there’d be BIG SHIT. If I started a club and pub for WHITES ONLY, there’d be mass action. Don’t think that because you are black, you can get away with ANYTHING now that the country “belongs to you†(ag, jirre shame). One day, when this country is run to the ground and EVERYTHING we have created is destroyed by your policies and bullshit, you might remember the good old days when things went well for everyone.
July 28th, 2005 at 1:29 pm
Wow. Apartheid is alive, well, and UGLY as it ever was, to judge by the racist crap being spouted above.
Can people really be that dumb, spiteful, narrow-minded, ignorant, intolerant, and blind to everyday reality? It makes you wonder if we’ve progressed as a society at all in the last 15 years.
Jeez, people, if a bunch of black yuppies want to play golf together, let them. It’s not much of a price to pay for living in the best country in the world.
July 28th, 2005 at 2:24 pm
so where do we draw the line if we condone that black yuppies have the right to be racist about who they play golf with?
do we then also condone who gets jobs in SA based on their skin color? oh wait … we do that already!
the point is … if we want racism to die then why do we allow the reverse racism that we see in “nodern” SA each and every day?
if you want racism dead, then dead it must be for EVERYBODY; not just when it suits you!
July 28th, 2005 at 2:27 pm
Dear Toadie;
you say … “I would probably be determined to wreak havoc and vengeance on my oppressors the moment the tables turned.” fair point! i would probably too; but the reality is that not many of us that are being havoc’d right now had anything to do with the wrongs of the past. i had nothing to do with the decision of the volk 40 years ago!
July 28th, 2005 at 2:50 pm
Nice. Real nice.
I like this real intellectual response. So, some white golfers get left out and all of you start throwing you toys out of the cot. Guess what? Thank God that we didn’t lynch your “volk” in 1994. Count your blessings we didn’t hold Nurenburg trials or else your Daddy wouldn’t be sitting at home, enjoying his pension.
So an equally qualified black person gets a job instead of you. Think of it as the price you pay for your Dad not rotting in jail.
It’s easy for you to jump up and down and screen about how you are all so “oppressed” now because of “affirmative action” and “BEE quota’s”. Do you really want to know what it meant when we were oppressed? We were shipped off to townships. We were denied education. We were denied electricity and sanitation. Our children were shot and killed. Our parents were humiliated. We were stripped off all our dignity. That was Apartheid my friend.
Yes, no one is saying that all white people were responsible. But if you think we are going to have sympathy if we are rectifying a few wrongs you can go to hell.
Do you think anyone in the world has sympathy for “white South Africa”? Give me a break…
July 28th, 2005 at 3:00 pm
I moved to south Africa in 1995, just after the election, and neither me nor my parents have ever been in the country before.
So… Now, because some people who share my skin colour were bastards years ago, I get punished for it?
July 28th, 2005 at 4:36 pm
I typed a 1000 word reply, but deleted it since it wouldn’t have made an impact on you in any way. Live your life, I’ll live mine… You call me a racist(and you are wrong), I call myself a realist and you an arrogant little doos.
10 years of democracy sure has brought us so much closer together my African brother! Let us all* embrace the spirit of Ubuntu…
*Terms and conditions apply
July 28th, 2005 at 4:40 pm
“So an equally qualified black person gets a job instead of you.” equally qualified?!? i think not! don’t come with your crap when you have no idea what you’re talking about! some little snot nose of technicon with no work experience is hardly called equally qualified.
July 28th, 2005 at 4:43 pm
“Thank God that we didn’t lynch your “volk” in 1994.” no you people just “lynch” our kind every damn day! you rob from us, rape our wives, and BABIES! COME ON!
July 28th, 2005 at 4:43 pm
He’s going to say: “But where must he have gotten the experience? He didn’t have the opporunity!”
July 28th, 2005 at 6:01 pm
Man do I miss the rainbow nation right now…
July 28th, 2005 at 6:02 pm
Man do I miss the rainbow nation right now…
you guys just make me want to quit the life I have built for myself in England, and come back and emerse myself in this sense of brotherly love and togetherness that you’ve built over there while I’ve been away…
July 28th, 2005 at 6:16 pm
Don’t just an entire nation by the splutterings and rantings of a few ignoramuses on either side of the great divide.
The vast majority of whities and darkies get along with each other just fine, and the country today is in far better shape than it ever was under the Nazi goons of the previous regime.
July 28th, 2005 at 6:34 pm
I can absolutely tell that there is allot of love back there Joller. I could tell the last time I cam home to visit my parents also. I was absolutely feeling the love when the 4 guys in the white golf tried to back into me on my parents’ road (I assume in an attempt to hijack me – I didn’t stick around long enough to know for sure).
The earlier comment about SA being the most beutiful place in the world was almost true though. It should read “potentially” in front of that though. If we could get rid of the corrupt government who is determined to enrich themselves and their friends at everybody else’s expense. Get rid of all the fucking racists (black, white, or any other) – actually, get rid of all the ism’s in generally (apart from lesbianism, which I am quite a fan of… – get rid of the criminals and all the hatefull fuckers that are determined to ruin the country, and let the people who want to build a strong and decent society do just that, then it could be the most beutiful place in the world….
July 28th, 2005 at 10:46 pm
All animals are equal… some are just more equal than others.
If you want a little chuckle, have a look at
http://www.homecomingrevolution.co.za/
It’s a propaganda site sponsored by FNB (nogal) aimed at enticing SA expats back to SA. They used to have a very entertaining blog, but they shut it down because ironically they didn’t much like the things real free speaking South Africans were saying.
SA is a glass half full/empty – depending on how you look at it. Whether it will get fuller or emptier, will take a few years to know.
July 29th, 2005 at 8:41 am
I agree with Chamber Girl on this one… We will have to wait and see. I have decided to give it a couple more years and see how it goes.
July 29th, 2005 at 10:05 am
Is there a time frame on this one? How many years of reverse racism will it take to undo the wrongs of apartheid? It’s a gigantic pendulum and is certainly not an answer – we will never find the balance that it really takes to be a true rainbow nation if we continue like this.
July 29th, 2005 at 11:01 am
This is to JoeBlack,
Let me first say that you are 100% right. It’s only natural for people who have suffered at the hands of other to want to have some revenge. Also, I don’t think that anybody really gives a shit that a bunch of people who have something in common want to play golf together – at the exclusion of others.
What is disturbing is that, when Nelson became president, and a constitution was drawn up for South Africa, it because an absolute cornerstone of that constitution that nobody would ever be discriminated against on the grounds of colour, sex, sexual orientation etc.
This was an important thing for Nelson, and at the time, allot of us white people were greatfull to him, as he seemed determined to right the wrongs of the past – without vengeance.
The reality of the dream that was the new south africa has not really happened the way we hoped though. Instead of raising everybody’s standard of education to the highest level, the new government has merely lowered everybody’s standard fo education to a point where most university degrees issued in SA are no-longer recognised by the international community.
Instead of cutting unemployment, and giving people something to work towards, the new government has increased unemployment to 65% of the population (the current UN figures).
Instead of tackling crime and corruption, the new government is actively involved.
Instead of enforcing the constitutional guarantee of no racism, and turning the affirmative action programme into a positive and sustainable means of raising the bar for the whole country, the new government has turned affirmative action into a tool of revenge against whites, and the single largest cause of corporate bacrupsy in South Africa – perpetuating the increase of unemployment.
I really hope that the Government, and people like you start to see sense sometime soon. Destroying the country we all love is in nobody’s interests.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:04 pm
BigGuy, the unemployment figure you quote is totally wrong. Where did you get it from? I’ve never seen it quoted in any official UN publication.
The official unemployment figure in SA is about 26%, although in practice it’s generally thought to be around 40%.
But the figure doesn’t take the informal economy into account, so a lot of people who are classified as “unemployed” actually do work at some level.
Which is not to suggest that unemployment isn’t a big problem here, or that we don’t have other even bigger problems to contend with.
The point is, despite these problems, our economy is currently one of the strongest and fastest-growing in the world.
And you’re also misreading the Constitution – Affirmative Action or BEE is NOT discrimination. It is rightful and just redress for more than four decades of Apartheid.
The effects of that policy can’t just be ignored or shrugged off, because we’re still feeling them today.
As for AA being used as a “tool of revenge” against whities, the fact is that the corporate sector in this country is still predominantly run by those of paler hue, even 15 years after Apartheid.
Far from being bent on revenge, the people who now run this country have proven themselves to be models of accommodation, reconciliation, and goodwill across the racial divide. Mandela isn’t the only one who has displayed those characteristics, even in the face of some incredible petty-mindedness from some of those who still long for the “good old days”.
Yes, it will be a long while before we can call ourselves a “normal” society. But as abnormal socities go, there’s a huge amount of everyday evidence to suggest that we’re not doing that badly after all.
July 29th, 2005 at 12:32 pm
Joller,
I think that you live in a bit of a dream world.
Here are some things personal to me that have happened, and have shaped my view:
My parents have a small manufacturing business. A little while ago, they decided to see if opening a small factory outlet in a local supermarket would be worthwhile. They figured that rents would probably be low as 80% of the shops were standing empty, and they could use it to create some employment, and as an added revenue stream for the business. They applied, but were rejected as the policy they were following – to meet the AA targets – was that white owned businesses couldn’t rent shop space in the centre.
I went to SA on business, to help one of the big mobile phone companies with some technology that they wanted to implement. They asked if I was interested in returning, and I said I was. They made me an offer of a job, with a caveat that I would have to relinquish my current senior management title, and that I would never be promoted or do anything other than job they were hiring me for – to meet AA targets.
A young lady friend of mine was a successfull advocate in South Africa. She moved to England after reading a government announcemnet that attourneys wanting to brief an advocate had to make use of black advocates – regardless of competance – over white advocates.
If this hasn’t affected you yet, then I’m glad for you….
July 29th, 2005 at 3:44 pm
Where was this little voice in the back of my head saying, “Don’t get involved with this”. but fuck that. i never listen to it anyway.
Just got one thing to say quick.
I’m not racist….I love white people.
(I’m white for those of you who don’t know)
July 29th, 2005 at 9:36 pm
Ahem… I have just one little question.
Is all this Righting the Wrongs of the Past/ AA /BEE blah… blah… blah not just a whole load of window dressing?
We all have our stories about how we have been affected by the changes that took place in SA. Some of them more bitter than others. Violence, crime, discrimination. And believe me, my heart aches for the things I have seen and heard in my short life.
But is all this not just a big fat excuse for a few wealthy people to get really REALLY rich? And here I am talking bout the Tokio Sexwale’s and the Jacob Zuma’s of the world.
My gran always used to say… as dit pap reen dan skep mens.
The problem is that there are some guys digging in with great big internationally funded hydraulic earth moving equipment and there are some of us who have to make do with an olive fork.
The fact remains, that the poor are still damn poor (if not poorer than they were 15 years ago) The rich – are still rolling in it – it’s just the demographic that’s changed a bit.
The rest of us in the middle are just collateral damage. It’s that cold.
July 30th, 2005 at 10:51 am
There are a lot of issues here (apparently), so just to recap, this is what I was saying:
- A golf club that sponsors the neuvo-rich (race issue aside) to play at better clubs, is not a fucking charity.
- Corporate sponsors that give money to this charity (race issue aside) deserve to have their names dragged through the dirt, there are many way more pressing matters that need their support. Try the hungry dying masses for one.
- Any form of discriminatory extremism “blacks/whites/Jews/ Muslims/ Christians/men/woman only” etc. is bad. If you dispute this, you’re a fucking idiot.
We’re supposed to be learning from the mistakes of the past, not replicating them in revenge – and lets face it, it’s not even revenge, it’s just a fucking weak excuse for a bunch of greedy opportunists looking for handouts…!
July 30th, 2005 at 11:27 am
1. Confused, if you think that we rape babies then well I’m sure you’d forgive if I believed that “you” are a mass murderer (ala Hitler, Crusades, Stalin, Slave Trade, etc.) and your only contribution to the human race are sitcoms.
2. Rich, you are right but what pisses people of is the level that you blow it out of proportion. I could say “why not expose these companies that benefited off Apartheid and make them pay reperations”. Surely that is a much more worthy thing to expose than them funding some golfers.
3. BigGuy, I’m sorry but guess what? Most senior management positions in South Africa are held by white males. If you couldn’t hack it then sorry ‘cos there are lots of companies hiring scarce skills from abroad that they pay big bucks for.
4.Eugene, Ahem. How much should you give us? Man, people like you are the reason people like Mugabe exist. Get back on your horse my friend.
5. All the reverse racism comments. What a joke. Do you really think that anything that is happening now is comparable to what happened in the past? Shame, you didn’t get a job.
July 30th, 2005 at 11:55 am
But Sipho, your argument lacks timing.
We’ve already had truth and reconciliation hearings for the crimes of the past, and that’s what they are, crimes of the past.
What we need to do now is move forward, actions like this simply will not help at all.
I’m not blowing anything out of proportion. I’m simply nipping the problem at the bud, if we let this go, what’s next, blacks only restaurants? Blacks only residential areas? Pass books for everyone else? I donth think that’s what anyone wants (at least I hope not).
I’m talking broken window theory here.
Racial discrimination, no matter how small, is wrong…!
July 30th, 2005 at 9:17 pm
you know what sucks?
being an indian!
we flippin in the middle of it all!
we neither white or black!
in apartheid we weren’t white enough!
now that apartheid is gone, we not black enough!
wat to do!
July 30th, 2005 at 9:18 pm
Sipho…just a question…how old are you?
July 31st, 2005 at 7:39 am
Thanks Rich for bringing the debate into focus.
Any discrimination is wrong, to form a group or an association where the entrance criteria is colour is surely going backwards.
Wait, we have The Black Management Forum and what other associations are there based on race only?
I am sad we have not had more comments from black South Africans who want to build a country free from racism. Or is that impossible?
July 31st, 2005 at 1:02 pm
- Whites make up maybe 20% of the population.
- BEE targets mostly aim for 25% black ownership.
That means that 20% of the population still owns 75% of the private sector. That’s a pretty good deal.
Belladonna, you are considered previously disadvantaged. Most Indian’s I know supported the ANC and PAC through the struggle and most of them are pleased with the new dispensation. Stop whining and start acting like part of the majority.
July 31st, 2005 at 2:25 pm
Sad, let me explain to you why there is a black management forum and an association of black accountants, etc. etc.
A few years ago (some of us still remember those days) there was a system called Apartheid. During that time we (non-white people) were not allowed to participate in many of the associations that existed. We formed our own so that we could develop professionally. Furthermore, after ’94 we relised that these associations could play a valuable role in developing young black professionals and provide networking opportunities for people who weren’t members of the Rand Club.
So yes, it is not an ideal situation but the reality is, there are certain wrongs that need to be fixed.
What will really get most of you fuming is that most of the big businesses in South Africa (including banks, audit firms and mining houses) not only sponsor these organisations but pay for their staff’s membership…
July 31st, 2005 at 9:30 pm
There are a lot of issues here.
Thanks for the note. I’ll review this.
August 1st, 2005 at 1:54 pm
wtf?
Dude. I was like a kid when apparetheid ended. So why the hell must I, a young white male, suffer for what was done by a bunch of old guys, who i never knew, and are prolly dead now? I thought apartheid was over. no its not. its just turning around now. And now I have to fucking suffer. Can’t even go play a round of golf. What kind of bullshit is that? But let a white man do it, and its racism. Contradicting themselves.
August 1st, 2005 at 3:00 pm
it appears the race card gets a lot of comments regardless of what blog you on ! Expect Joblog to run it once a week ….hahahah
You all take yourself far to seriously !!!
Reverse racism does not exist – there is only racism….
Besides they play golf – do you really give a fuck ?!
August 1st, 2005 at 3:40 pm
Dude, you can’t even spell “Apartheid”! Go read your history books and learn something about REAL SUFFERING. If your biggest suffering is that you “can’t play go play a round of golf”, then you really don’t have much to complain about.
August 1st, 2005 at 6:22 pm
Is it coz I is not black?
James Governor pointed me to
“Blacks Only!” and I
thought my reaction was worth a Copia entry.
August 1st, 2005 at 6:23 pm
Is it coz I is not black?
James Governor pointed me to
“Blacks Only!” and I
thought my reaction was worth a Copia entry.
August 1st, 2005 at 6:26 pm
I already pinged on the trackback to this article from Copia:
http://copia.ogbuji.net/blog/2005-07-31/Is_it_coz_
But looking through the most recent comments I wanted to say just one thing right here: please let’s not let the discussion here descend to acrimony and name-calling. It’s such an important topic. It needs intelligent discussion. Of course, it’s also a very sensitive topic, so I can understand the sore tempers. I just wish…
August 1st, 2005 at 7:01 pm
You are absolutely right Uche,
And I don’t think anybody really gives a shit about a bunch of people wanting to play golf together.
I do give a shit that it’s being fronted as a charity, but that’s not really a big issue for me either.
On a larger level, I think – as I have said before – that it is perfectly natural for a group of people who have been repressed in the past to want some form of revenge. I also understand that for a large number of these people, change isn’t happening as quickly as they would like to see it happening. the bottom line, though, is that South Africa operates in a global commercial marketplace.
The last time I was there, there were headline claims that the SA economy had grown by 7%, which was great as a statistic. What they failed to mention was that inflation was over 11%, and that the net result was that SA was in a recession.
I’ve also been looking for accurate figures on unemployment, but most detailed records stop in 2000 for some reason. They all agree a real rise in unemplyoment of around 4% a year up to 2000 though, and that the real unemployment figures then were already at 38%.
the thing is that the government and the AA / BEA policies are not tackling this root problem. If only 60% of the working age population is working, and this working age group only accounts for 40% of the overall population, then it doesn’t matter what percentage are black or white or indian, or anything else. It means that everyb ody is losing out.
If the government was really serious about leveling the playing field, then they would be focussing firstly on reversing the current trend of businesses closing and losing their export contracts due to uncompetitive pricing and strike action affecting delivery.
Once you have unemployment down to 1st world levels (below 10%, and as low as 2% in some European countries), then you can start deciding on what equality needs to be implemented.
It’s a proper democratic thing to do: address the needs of the many (people who need to work) before you address the needs of the few (people who want to be managers or directors).
In an active economic climate, where people in a country are working, there is more money in the local market, which means more opportunity in the country to make money, which means more room for competition. In this sort of a market, BEE companies could start from scratch, with venture capital, or government grants, or anything else you want to do to stimulate it, and compete on equal terms with older, more established companies.
This competition is good for consumers, and good for the companies. They are forced to adapt new practices, and to operate more effectively, and could be completely owned by those that were disadvantaged.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that SA needs to focus on building itself up to the higher level, not on bringing everybody but the chosen few down to the lowest level. We’ve had many years of that, and in the end, it didn’t get anybody anywhere…
August 1st, 2005 at 7:55 pm
Ok, this debate has for the most part descended into puerile whining and name calling, and has moved away from Rich..!’s original point somewhat.
What Rich…! has been saying is a completely valid point:
First, this is not some company or charity, it’s a golf club. These people are not being paid to create opportunities for others, they’re being paid to fly around the country and have an awesome time playing at the best courses we have to offer. This is wrong, especially when you consider the fact that this money would be far better spent elsewhere, on people who really do need it.
Secondly, discrimination on the basis of race is wrong, and everybody should understand and condemn that. This is a principle enshrined in the ANC’s Freedom Charter, and the Constitution. Affirmative Action is tolerated only because it is seen as a temporary solution to give those oppressed under Apartheid a bit of a leg up in order to level the field somewhat, rather than a permanent crippling of the White population of SA.
After all, in concept, if such laws are made permanent how different is it from the concepts that underpinned Apartheid? As Rich…! asked, where does it stop? Today it is Blacks-only golf clubs, tomorrow it could be Blacks-only restaurants, and so on.
Besides, just think of the uproar that would ensue if a golf club in SA (or perhaps the USA or UK) declared itself to be a “Whites-only” club. Yet it is considered acceptable for Blacks-only clubs to exist…
August 1st, 2005 at 8:00 pm
Guys, the Copia post is well worth a read.
BigGuy, great ideas, but aren’t they a little too late? We do have BEE, it’s almost ubiquitous in those old established companies you’re mentioning, in fact I’m happy to see that that is so much the case, that BEE status no longer guarantees work (almost everyone that counts has it) thus it’s come back to service and product.
That’s another story though.
However the topics do meet.
The above mentioned businessman bought his way into the company he’s part of, much respect to him. However when he told this to a very well-known and well-respected African businessman/politician he was admonished, “Why did you pay for your shares?” he was asked, “It’s your right to have them, they must give them to you.”
Now that’s just rubbish, the last thing we need is a group that always wants handouts, and thinks it’s their right to have it their way all the time.
As parents we have a word for people like this:
Brats!
Thank goodness there are people like this guy that wants to pay his way and earn his dues, They are the real future of the country.
Now if only I could get him to see my point on this golf club issue.
Dude, c’mon..!
August 1st, 2005 at 8:05 pm
If we stick to the essence of the issue that was raised,it was about a grouping being formed, not even a real club, by young (black) upwardly mobile people, who wanted to play golf and thought they should not have to pay for their fun ( never mind, they could well afford it).
I have had a lot of time to think about the core issue, especially after reading all the comments.
Here is what I thinks -
Freedom of association is guaranteed in our constitution.
However, if a group of Pinkies got together and excluded Blackies, it would be frowned upon in a big way. In my opinion quite rightly so.
But, why is it right for Black people to do so, just because of what happened to their parents? We are talking of a bunch of people here who were certainly privileged, ( Hilton, Michealhouse, Wits, BA, CA, MBA, LLB.
It comes down to one thing, to we really want to move forward, or do we want to milk the opportunity that presents itself for personal gain forever and ever.
Just in case you think I never suffered, how much time have you got for me to sing my song?
Sad
August 1st, 2005 at 10:23 pm
Mokopa and Rich
So correct me if I’m wrong, before the debate unravelled into an attempt at solving all of SA’s socio- economic problems, Rich’s point was that a bunch of black dudes got together to play golf without letting anyone into the clique?
Hmm… How ironic. Guys this is a GOLF club. One of the last bastions of manliness. Golf (which incidentally is an acronym for Gentlemen Only Ladies Forbidden) is by its very nature and culture an elitist and exclusive activity – that and a Good Walk Ruined.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am not the kind of woman who is inclined to or about to set fire to my new lacy size 34 D Ann Summers number, but consider the following:
Golf Clubs all over the world have membership and club rules – there are still clubs in the US that do not allow black members.
And believe me, you are not going to get to be a member of St Andrews, unless you have a very wealthy daddy.
Does anyone remember the eyebrows that were raised when Tiger Woods started winning?
Women were not allowed into the Johannesburg Country Club clubhouse until as late as I think the 1970’s (If anyone has the time to look up the date – cause I stand corrected here). Incidentally – similarly – women were only allowed into the Rand Club in 1998! At the time – were strenuous objections because of the extra expenses of having to build ladies change rooms and ladies tees.
So a bunch of guys formed a new boys club. They are after all the guys with the money and they are at the end of the day will end up being the future of South Africa. So they got someone to sponsor them.
Guess what – That is exactly what has been happening in Clubs for hundreds of years. The only difference is that normally it’s normally the wealthy white guys who get to wander around the course on a Saturday morning wearing ridiculous trousers…
What we have here gentlemen, is not racism per se, but the very elitism that whacking a little white ball with a silly an most unsuitable club which seems to create a subliminal trigger in the mind causing one to think that somehow they are superior to others. It is golfing in its purest form.
I think South Africans are way too sensitive about the whole race issue. I think we should stop being so bitter and start laughing at ourselves.
And this is where I get off my soap box – with all my underwear intact…
August 1st, 2005 at 10:39 pm
What amazes me, Chamber Girl, is that everyone keeps quoting the past as justification here, what a cop out. So 20 years ago girls weren’t allowed in the rand club, that’s like arguing against the value of email because 20 years ago there was no internet.
The world has moved on. Like all progress it’s driven by those of us looking ahead, and slowed down by those of us that keep looking back.
This is a new country with new, unique problems, we need to find new solutions.
Looking back just cannot be the answer, why? That’s easy, because as we all know, the past was quite a fuck up…!
August 1st, 2005 at 11:14 pm
Chamber Girl, you can’t seriously believe that Golf stands for “Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden”, can you?
That’s a long-discredited urban legend that began as a silly little joke. The real origins of the word lie in the Dutch word “kolf”, meaning “club”. Look it up on the Internet if you don’t believe me.
I’m not disputing the validity of your argument, just correcting a misperception in the interests of accuracy.
Okay, now carry on talking crap, everybody, I’m off to play some golf.
August 2nd, 2005 at 1:58 am
Chamber Girl, the point is that a set of double standards is in place. All hell would break loose if somebody were to form a Whites-only golf club nowadays, yet it is considered acceptable to form Blacks-only clubs. This sort of thinking has the potential to lead us down a very slippery slope.
Frankly, I think the Copia post that Rich…! linked to is the only reply to the original post that actually gets it right, and I’d suggest that all those commenting on this should give it a read.
The thing is, it does not matter that this is a golf club, and that golf clubs are generally elitist and exclusionary. What matters is that the mistakes of the past are being repeated, instead of being learnt from. The members of this Blacks-only golf club seem to regard such racially-centred exclusion and elitism as their right, and it is pretty much that sort of thinking – that one race had more “right” to certain things than any other race – that led to the formation of the ideas that underpinned apartheid.
Our Constitution forbids discrimination based on race (except in the case of affirmative action). It’s time we realised that applies to all races, and not only to discrimination practiced by Whites on others.
August 2nd, 2005 at 10:30 am
Well, there we go. BigGuy has solved all our problems. Let’s all go and embrace happy clappy free-trade and globalisation and all our problems will be solved.
Oh shit. I forget…maybe there was a reason that people go crazy outside every WTO and G8 summit.
BigGuy…don’t give us your neo-liberal crap. The only benefit is that the golf shoes we wear are cheaper ‘cos 8 year olds in Free Trade Zones are stiching them.
August 2nd, 2005 at 12:03 pm
Sipho,
Before Europe and America got to their current state of low unemployment, and low levels of exploitation, they went through the exact same problems. It was called the industrial revolution, and it is very well documented in a number of history books.
In essence, the process goes like this:-
- Phase 1 – an exploited work force (often v ery young too) is employed to build up industry. Salaries arfe low, and working conditions are poor.
- Phase 2 – industry grows to a point where the workers have a choice as to where they work, and they choose to work for the companies that treat them better, and pay them more.
The problem is that, when – as in developing countries – unemployment is high, there is very little money knocking around the country. This means that there is a very limited local marketplace, and the way most companies survive is by selling to the export market – where they have to compete on equal terms. To do this, many governments have active strategies (The Japanese government, for example, actively de-values the Japanese currency to ensure that Japanese exports will be competitive on the international market).
At some point the “The world owes us” mentaility has to end. The world owes us nothing. We owe it to ourselves, and to our children – to sort out our own problems, and ensure that we aren’t just another whinging coountry – begging outside the G8 with our hands cupped, hoping for handouts.
August 2nd, 2005 at 12:50 pm
“Let me tell you something, Mark. You humans, most of you, subscribe to this policy of “an eye for an eye, a life for a lifeâ€, which is known throughout the universe for its stupidity. Even your Buddha and your Christ had quite a different vision. But nobody’s paid much attention to them, not even the Buddhists or the Christians.” – Prot to Dr. Mark Powell, from the very good movie K-Pax.
I’d use a few more stronger words than “stupidity” to describe this behaviour many of these posts clearly portray but I think the quote otherwise gets it spot on and I like it alot. I just wonder how much longer I’m going to have to listen to people (i used the word monkeys first) try and defend and rationalize their viewpoints and actions around race dynamics, now and back then. I also don’t think it takes a genius to realize that it’s the same defence (offence!) mechanism that will keep racism alive and going round and round in circles.
I don’t have the right to tell black people to stop holding grudges and that BEE IS NOT WORKING!!! I don’t have the right to tell white people to stop holding grudges and to stay in this country (yes I know other races leave too) but I hope that all South Africans will, one day, wake up educated and intelligent enough to know that there are better ways to spend our lives in this country…
Thank God I’m not black, thank God I’m not white… because it seems you’re at great risk of inheriting very delusional grudges if you are…
August 2nd, 2005 at 1:07 pm
Hmm. What goes around comes around, i’m a white african. I will live happily in my own country. Any big headed idiots from any race who have issues with this idea can go to hell.
All this crap on join the majority can stick it, all I want is to be able to live and prosper and it is my right. I will make it happen, affirmative? To those of you who prefer to use the old excuses of the past, get original brav! It must suck having the world feel sorry for you all the time! Grow up.
August 2nd, 2005 at 9:53 pm
10 points Rich for a really good topic posted!
Golfer, if you pause to look for a minute past the glare of your ridiculous trousers, you may have noted that was taking the piss.
Of course I know the GOLF joke. It was merely a tongue in cheek bat at what is turning into a rather dull circle argument that will only go round and round in circles with no resolution ever.
My point is simply this. Has anyone paused to think that perhaps we are not dealing with racism here per se, but elitism, which is a far more ancient animal, which has been around for millennia?
Before things like liberty, egalitarianism and justice for all (if you’ll excuse my badly translated French).
Of course the past sucked – and I for one am really happy we have moved on from there. The thing is just that there is nothing really new in the world. It is part of our primal hard coding – human nature – to form little groups or cliques for whatever reason.
So a bunch of black guys formed a boys club. So they got someone to sponsor them – whoopee ding. So a bunch of guys are enjoying the fruits of their success as young up and coming black South Africans. So the white boys weren’t invited to the party. That does not necessarily mean that the whole of SA is going to collapse before my 08.45 am cup of tea tomorrow.
In my humble opinion, South Africa hasn’t learnt from its past or its neighbours for that matter. All the issues are still there, they’ve just been repackaged. That’s the really scary bit. The Really scary bit is the culture of entitlement – the “We’re previously disadvantaged” attitude.
If you break it down to base principles – What your black golfing friend is thinking is no different to someone saying – give me your farm, I’m a 17 year old previously disadvantaged war veteran.
Bang the black/white/AA/BEE drum as much as you want – Black elitism and classism is and always was way more prevalent in SA than it ever was amongst whites. The fact remains; you will never change that kind of thing. As long as people have the (constitutionally protected) right to freedom of association you will get this kind of thing – No matter how many G8 Summits they have or how many times Bob Geldoff does a crappy rendition of a Beetles song in an Armani suit and flip flops. (Which was a terrible thing to see as anyone who saw Live8 might agree with me)
South Africa is a country of tremendous tragedy and waste. It’s also a place of tremendous hope. Its what you do with it that counts…
August 3rd, 2005 at 7:23 am
Lady and Guys
We are not going to solve the issue, I have heard some good points being made and we have heard some home truths from all sectors of the population.
There are some reasonable people in this world and many others.
Let’s continue building this country and maybe some day this dude will see your point, Rich.
No longer sad, bad glad we still can practice freedom of expression.
August 3rd, 2005 at 6:49 pm
Democracy doesn’t work in a country with such a disparity between haves and haven’ts. The new black elite is keeping the whites out with race based democracy (bigotry?).
The whites think they built the country with their technology (the wheel) and the blacks think it was built on their backs. Thisd is a good oppertunity for the two could come together (the economy is bouyant) – I’m afraid it is being squandered by bigotry and greed.
August 3rd, 2005 at 8:28 pm
Nice reply Chamber Girl, you had some valid points. I do disagree with you on one aspect though, the existence of this golfing club is less about freedom of association and more about discrimination.
So far as I understand the existing law and Constitution, it’s perfectly ok for a group of men of the same race to get together and do something. If this is an informal gathering, they also cannot be forced to add additional members.
However, if a group of people form a club or association, and discrimination on the basis of race is not specifically required (like say for a black political rights advocacy group), then they are not meant to be allowed to discriminate on the basis of gender or race. Therefore this golfing club that bans whites from joining is just as distasteful to me personally as any similar whites-only group.
The issue with the corporations involved in this is that they are in effect supporting unnecessary racial discrimination just so that they may maintain their PC credentials. This is not a good thing, nor is it desirable, and unless we make it clear now that this sort of discrimination is unacceptable it will turn into a serious problem for this country later on.
August 3rd, 2005 at 10:35 pm
Call it white karma. Even though we didn’t have anything to do with past injustices of hundreds of years, we get to pay the price.
Still, this is worth attacking just because it’s elitist.
August 4th, 2005 at 8:44 am
i stand with belladonna on this one. i’m a coloured south african and my family was also part of the struggle but we still stand in the middle and not been recognized. why has nothing been done about mr. ngoro’s comments about coloured people that he made on his personal website? he is still in government despite his comments, however if trevor manual had to say something like that about an african there would have been such an up roar.
having said that, lets get on with our lives and stop bickereing about where we can play golf.
August 5th, 2005 at 9:12 am
Greetings all.
It is of great importance that I, the chairman of this Golf Society, respond to the above comments.
1. Everyone in our club is a member of a golf club and holds an official handicap, ranging from Houghton CC to Dainfern CC. So we do play golf regularly at the bastion of white elitism.
2. Yes we’re young (25-35), black and upwardly mobile. Corporates want to be associated with us – the so called untapped market.
3. This is not racism! We are merely creating a niche market for our sponsors.
4. By keeping it as a black’s only club, we’re creating an identity Corporates want to deal with at the moment. Remember that the Black Management Forum was initially a Blacks Only Society.
5. Unfortunately (Rich……!) forgot to mention why we term ourselves a “charity associationâ€; we’ll be having 10 PDI’s (please excuse the derogatory term) join the society were we’ll be able to take them to our Golf Days and to lessons our members will be having. They’ll become official members and enjoy opportunities they otherwise would not have had if they were to solely depend on individuals such as yourself (majority of).
6. We have registered ourselves as a non profit organization were all funds remaining at the end of the financial year will be donated – we understand the implications of SARS if we don’t follow through! After all we CAN afford our own rounds of golf, we’ve been doing it for the past couple of years. If companies want to be associated with us, yes they’ll have to pay.
7. After all guys, this is just a game of golf. Yip, fly fishing is next!!
Look forward to your commentsïŠ
August 5th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
OMG! Clive.
Well there we have it, from the horse’s mouth. Please excuse me while I pick my lower jaw up off the carpet for a moment….
There are so many holes I could punch in your post, but that would just be too easy, albeit longwinded and boring.
I will however comment on your point 3, which reads:
“…3. This is not racism! We are merely creating a niche market for our sponsors…â€
Now the Oxford Dictionary defines racism as follows:
racism, noun.
1. the belief that a particular race, especially one’s own, is superior to other races.
Ex. … the biological racism which furnished a fraudulent scientific sanction for the atrocities committed in Hitler’s Germany and elsewhere (Science).
2. discrimination or prejudice against a race or races based on this belief.
Ex. Racism, which by definition involves a form of subjection of one race by another, is evil. “Apartheid” cannot succeed (New York Times).
3. a political or social policy or system against a race or races based on this belief.
Ex. Racial determinism … easily slips into the political field, where this approach is called racism (Melville J. Herskovits).
So lets test this:
1. Clearly you feel that you are superior to others if one has regard to your references to your Houghton and Dainfern membership, your black upward mobility and the fact that you are desired by corporations as a niche market;
2. In addition to this, you are clearly discriminating on the basis on this belief.
3. And lastly you have implemented a social policy system (your club, of which you are the chairman) based on this belief.
So clearly my inferior white female brain is missing something here.
I take back what I said earlier in my earlier post. This is spectacular example of arrogant elitist black racism – in all its ugliness.
How noble of you to try and window dress this as a charity. How charitable of you to “introduce†a few PDI brothers to the game of white elitist golf.
Dude, if it look like a turd and smells like a turd, it stays a turd, no matter how many red ribbons you tie around it.
August 5th, 2005 at 4:25 pm
Hey Clive, thanks for replying, however I cant see that you’ve addressed the point of my post which is that this is an act of racism, and thus a step back for the country.
Lets go through it:
1: What’s with the white elitism dig? Do either of those clubs discriminate on the basis of race (like you do)?
2: I’m not disputing that companies want to associate with successful individuals, but why not upwardly mobile white people too, why exclude people on the basis of race?
3: Fucking bullshit bro. Of course it’s racism, you only accept black people, what else could this be? That niche market you mention was the basis of apartheid too.
4: Again, refer to my comments to point two. I hope corporates would like to to associate with all races.
5 & 6: I didn’t mention it because it seemed so pointless, as I teased you when we spoke, letting a few poor people play golf every now and then is hardly a charity (like giving a blind man sight for a day), besides, there are far more pressing issues than golf for corporates to sponsor. Lastly, as I understand it, once you guys are finished playing golf at SA’s most elite golf clubs, you’ll give your change to the need, I’m not sure if I’d wait by the phone for the Nobel prize to call.
7: Today it’s a game of golf, what’s it going to be tomorrow? Where does it end?
To close Clive, I want to ask you a question. If I started the exact same club, with the sole difference being that mine was “White’s only” and I got corporate sponsors on board to fund it, what would your reaction be to a) me, and b) my sponsors?
Eagerly awaiting your response…!
August 5th, 2005 at 4:34 pm
>>”3. This is not racism! We are merely creating a niche market for our sponsors”
so if i were to establish a housing development; where i’d like to keep it to whites only in order to cater for a specific “niche market”; then this would be allowed? this would not be deemed racist in any way?
now i am REALLY confused!
well said Chamber Girl; “arrogant elitist black racism – in all its ugliness”
and this is the very reason i shall be taking my skills & experience (which a developing, young country should be seeking to retain) and moving abroad where my poor 1yr white daughter will not suffer her entire life because of a genetic pigment issue…
if only the doctors could do a skin transplant, then perhaps my innocent, apartheid oblivious, daughter would have a future in our rainbow nation.
well i do hope that you all find your pot of gold at the end of this rainbow and do not all kill yourselves in greed trying to fill your own pockets from it…
August 8th, 2005 at 11:39 am
Greetings once again
Let me get straight to the point.
Firstly Chamber Girl. Unfortunately race has to be a card of exclusiveness to this club, as is the case in all female gyms, similar religion clubs etc. We’re merely riding the same wave of exclusivity only now it race, let’s be civil enough to realize that there are things that race will have to be a separator without being racist. By having white members what exactly will our strong draw card to entice sponsorship be? Youth? Please don’t get us wrong, we believe there are forums (too many to mention) where blacks and white form clubs together.
Secondly Rich. Have you maybe asked yourself why sponsors want to get involved? I asked a prospective sponsor. His answer was “making golf (it could have been soccer or fly fishing) accessible to 10 youths and using young black guys who have over come these barriers to lead them and mentor themâ€. Think about what the UCB (United Cricket Board) does for cricket development in the townships. They bring Makhaya Ntini (a black guy who grew up in the townships who plays in the worlds top arenas) with the finance of Bakers (The Sponsor who wants product mileage) to coach and mentor the kids. Basically we (the members) have all had to overcome issues to get involved in these clubs and fortunately our own finances (in Makhaya’s instance it was raw talent) made barriers to entry that much easier.
Thirdly Confused. If ‘whites’ had no access to housing prior to 1994 and now only a few fortunate ones do then by you creating a whites only housing development to fast track housing for whites then sure I’d not term it racism. Think about AA, do you term that racism? And lastly if we were greedy and wanted to fill our pockets, then we would not have any sort of financial donation year end and we’d pay tax.
August 8th, 2005 at 11:42 am
Okay!
It seems like everyone has calmed down and is focusing on the matter at hand – which is whether or not this golf club is racist.
This, being my first and final post, is fairly long, so please bear with me.
Before I share my thoughts on the original post, I just wanna respond to some comments made by others:
* Firstly, quite simply because it is the most recent post, all who feel immigration is the only solution are more than welcome to leave…it’s nothing to the rest of us who choose to stay behind and struggle to make S.A work.
* Secondly, alot of people have come out of their hiding place and shown their racist belief systems (even if it is hidden in subtlety by referring to black people as “them” & “they” and reminding us of the marvels european settlers did in this country by bringing “their” bibles and sanitation…ahh, Cecil Rhodes on his horse again, huh?)
* Thirdly, we need to remember that forums are places to discuss things and to discuss them in a helpful manner. The more ignorant amongst us need to be weary of offending other people…that’s why this topic was raised – to try curb offense on the base of race. So if you’re looking to pick a fight…rather fly a kite.
*Lastly, going right against what I just stated, bad karma to the person who dubs all black people as rapist who rape and murder ‘their’ kids and wives and “lynch” there folk. If I knew you personally, I would help you pack your bags and I would see you onto your flight. If that is not racist, what the fuck is?
COOL! Now to business.
Q: Is this elitist?
A: Yes.
Q: Is it racist?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you blame them?
A: No…
Q: But does it make it right?
A: Not at all.
Remember, black people, whether they’re in the majority (like in South Africa), or in the minority (like in America) have always been marganilised (apartheid and slavery, for example) and solidarity (or as the current “it” word suggests, UBUNTU) was the only solution…which is why exlusive “black-representative” organisations exist…but don’t get it twisted, I’m not justifying what this golf club is doing.
Clive’s swagger in his response does nothing for his cause. “It’s just a game of golf”? What the hell man? That’s like the apartheid goverment saying “it’s just a seat on a bench” or “it’s just a spot on a bus” or “it’s just a toilet”. Racism is racism. It is what it is. And do you seriously believe that a poor person’s standard of life is going to be enhanced by playing an 18 with you lot? Please! You know you’re just going to treat him/her like a charity case and will look down on him/her because they are not from your social circle – it’s human nature. You wanna be charitable? FEED PEOPLE!
I’m young, black, and have plenty of white homies. I work in a practically all white company and I’m blessed to have never grown up in apartheid. Clive is wrong, and some of the people (mostly white) who have made comments are just as wrong.
Shit…this has been fun! Yo Rich…! , I dare you to post something on B.E.E!
August 8th, 2005 at 12:39 pm
Clive:
No, I have not asked why the sponsors support you, but I will, directly, the moment you tell us who exactly they are.
You cite sport and AA as examples. However the policy there is proportional representation, what’s proportional about “blacks only”?
Lastly, and you keep avoiding this one, if someone had a “whites only” club with the same charter as yours that helps the same people, would SA tolerate it, and worse, sponsor it? You’re kidding yourself if you answer yes.
The question I need you to answer is simple, is it okay to have race specific clubs (any race) in South Africa, and will it help us to develop a better country going forward?
Mo:
Well said bro…!
August 8th, 2005 at 1:26 pm
This is also my last post on the subject, which as been loads of fun, so bear with me too.
What you guys must remember, is that we don’t live in a perfect world. There will always be a clash or overlapping or rights, even fundamental human rights. For example. Everyone has the right of freedom of movement and the right to freedom of expression. So what happens if these rights clash? Well, in the interests of fairness and justice, the court/ government then has the right to infringe upon that right for the greater good. One-way streets and red traffic lights are examples of this lawful infringement on rights. Laws against possessing drugs and not doing bad sexual things to little children are examples of this too. It’s how constitutionalism works. Otherwise, one would have complete chaos, if everyone just did what he or she wanted. So the test is unlawfulness and justifiability.
I now will briefly deal with Clive’s last point addressed to me, which will be the intellectual equivalent of clubbing a baby seal. So here goes…
“…Unfortunately race has to be a card of exclusiveness to this club, as is the case in all female gyms..â€
I don’t want to go off on a tangent on how girls can be astronauts or lawyers and all that boring suffragette stuff, but we can all safely accept that biologically men and women are different. I mean apart form all the hormones and naughty jiggly bits, men are physically bigger, have bigger muscles, women have wider pelvis bones, men have wider jawbones… etc. etc. There is nothing elitist or unlawfully discriminatory about it. It’s just simply that I cant dislodge the wheel nuts on my car with the wheel spanner no matter how hard I jump on it, cause I don’t have the physical strength to do it.
The concept of all female gyms sprouts from this. Our good friend Mr Branson saw a gap in the market to cater for women by supplying smaller weights and custom fitted gym equipment for people with shorter legs, narrower shoulders and smaller muscles – just like they make smaller running shoes for female athletes. That’s also why one gets things like women’s tennis and athletics.
As far as I know, if you are a small boned transvestite, or have had a sex change the gym will let you in too.
http://www.ladyofamerica.co.za/AboutLoA.html
How on earth can that be equated to the blatant unlawful racist discrimination that our Clive has managed to create? Is he trying to infer that white people and black people have as many biological differences as women and men do?
That sounds quite Victorian to me. I think the Natural History Museum in London issued something like that to the press when Saartjie Baartman went on display there at the turn of the last century.
“…that there are things that race will have to be a separator without being racist…†Ja, well no fine… I suppose the disingenuousness of that statement speaks volumes for itself.
Shame on you Clive. Boo. Big wet raspberries to you mate.
You have made me cringe and feel ashamed to call myself a South African today.
August 8th, 2005 at 3:04 pm
I can certainly almost guarantee Clive and the members of his “elitist Black golf club” are very far from Previously Disadvantaged Individuals, in fact I know it as a fact. The sad thing is that these “corporates” are just as shallow as the members of the golf club. Only looking to jump on the “South African Rainbow Nation” gravy train. They are seeking corporate exposure only because young black South Africans get more exposure than young white South Africans can possibly dream of. The only way this country is going to move on from the apartheid era is if everybody stops thinking that they are owed a favour. Given the choice to play golf for free every weekend or pay out of my own pocket, I would definately choose the free option, but we have to question the motives of the corporates who are so willingly giving away money to the elitist, racist golf clubs when we have starving children on every street corner.
August 8th, 2005 at 3:22 pm
Eish – Ja met Eish ja!
August 10th, 2005 at 12:26 pm
Clive may be posturing and slightly pompous but I still think he’s right.
Allowing for a “forum” (for want of a term which allows for an association of members without permanent physical fixtures or facilities) in which a specified and predetermined group with similar identities (no matter how nebulously associated) can engage in an activity is not racist.
Not even if its whites only.
Yup – surprise surprise – not even then.
This golf club has no clubs, locker rooms, bars, vestibules and / or any other actual facility to which a white person is blocked access. A white person merely is not allowed into the four-ball (et al) which walks the course and plays a round of golf (on courses open to anyone) with these (black) gents.
So? They are free to associate howsoever they wish. Check the constitution on that one.
No one complains when Jews do it (the Maccabbi Games is the third largest sporting event in the world – sorry, Jews only), nor when gay men and women set aside an Olympics for their exclusive attendance. Both of these events (including the many others like them) attract massive sponsorship by people hoping to seek exposure from the events and tap those specific markets.
We have to look past the semantic associations of our apartheid past and ignore the “yuk” factor inherent in words like “White/Black Only”. Anyone can associate with anyone else – Hypothetically, if I’m Hispanic and I like my Hispanic associates and our shared world views, family values or body odour more than I like anyone else, fine, let’s play golf. Same goes for Jews, Greeks, Muslims, Christians, Blacks, Indians and so on ad infinitum – including Whites.
Tell me I can’t use the same outhouse as you because I fall into any of the aforesaid categories, then we have a problem. You want to play golf, someone wants to gain exposure from your association – good luck.
I’ll even join you enterprising young fellows in the pub afterwards for a few drinks – if you’ll have a white boy along.
August 10th, 2005 at 9:45 pm
Sheesh Toadie, more power to you bro, you’re far more tolerant than I am. Me, I just think if we accept this, it’ll be hard to draw the line…!
August 11th, 2005 at 8:28 am
Nah Rich…! I think the line is fairly clear (ephemeral perhaps, but clear for now).
The distinction falls between associating with others on whatever basis you deem gratifying, possibly to the exclusion of most / all others, on the one hand and on the other (the left hand of darkness as it were) actively taking steps to ostracize a particular group or groups in order to separate yourself from them because of some perceived inferiority or inadequacy inherent in that group, ultimately resulting in that groups’ abuse, exploitation or denigration in any way.
The point ultimately being that these guys are playing golf together because they have ‘something’ to share with each other or gain from such an association – they’re not setting aside a golf course for their exclusive use because they are better than anyone else.
I don’t know – perhaps that is the seed of Apartheid, but I doubt it, I think its far more destructive to forbid such associations premised on some perceived threat to you as the excluded..?
August 11th, 2005 at 11:19 am
Sorry Toadie, I just cant see that the value of a few peoples gratification on a golf course is worth setting a precedent that this sort of racial-based exclusion is acceptable.
Sure, as you said, in the short term this is pretty harmless, but this is a long term issue. Even in the short term though this exclusion creates racial tension (just look at the reaction to this post) and that’s exactly what we don’t need.
These are by their own admission clever, well educated guys, let them find a better way to get a free round of golf, or better still, let them pay for their golf and use the time they sent on this initiative for the benefit of people that really need it…!
August 11th, 2005 at 12:16 pm
But the precedent has already been set, as Toadie is saying…there already are exclusive clubs, societies, and organisations for Jews/Irish/Chinese/Gays/Italians, etc.
Even the Mafia has its origins in people’s basic need to band together for reasons of sport or culture or any other specific interest…(try joining if you’re not of 100% Sicilian ancestry).
In any case, it is beyond me why any white South Africans should feel threatened by black South Africans banding together, especially for something as innocuous as golf. What about AZAPO, and all the other blacks-only political organisations? They’ve been around for ages, and the walls haven’t exactly come tumbling down. So why the fuss now?
If the last 10 years of democracy in this country haven’t been enough to convince whiteys that we ALL have a place here, then, seriously, there is no hope!
It also strikes me that the vast majority of whiteys who profess indignation about darkies forming their own golf club are really giving vent to their own conscious or unconscious racism, as many of the posts here prove only too well.
“Live and let live” is a very good philosophy. Let’s apply it, and stop trying to make a big issue out of something that isn’t a big issue after all.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:37 am
Just a quickie – not really interested in getting too involved. But lemme hazard this:
I do see a difference between the sponsorship of a major sporting event (such as the Maccabi games, or the gay Olympics) and a well-to-do four-ball’s golf game. Whereas sponsorship for the gay Olympics etc is specifically designed to benefit the sponsor with publicity, and the recipient with a subsidy (the games are expensive to put together, and its not free to participate, if you take all costs into consideration).
The sponsorship of an otherwise insignificant group participating in an otherwise insignificant sporting event (let’s face it, who needs sponsorship to play a round of golf?) is pathetic. Of course, if the golfers are actively publicising (or providing exposure in respect of) the relevant brand, fine. But is the cost of the sponsorship proportional to the publicity gained? I doubt it.
Frankly, I think its horribly unethical. It can hardly be called charity, and it doesn’t fit with my understanding of corporate sponsorship.
Now, if they were a seriously (and NOT previously-)underprivileged four-ball, that would be another story altogether.
…anyways, back to the lesbians for me.
August 12th, 2005 at 8:41 am
Miscusi.
Erratum: the second and third paragraph of the previous comment should be combined and…um, you can do the rest.
My bad.
August 18th, 2005 at 10:13 am
I think everyone needs to catch a wake up this is no longer a race issue i as a white South African can spin you a yarn as to all the oppressions i have suffered in the past ten year’s but that would help no-one , what people need to realise is that Bee doesn’t affect you if your level of dedication to your job is sufficient . I think this is more an issue of small groups of people believing that for whatever the reason it is they have a right whatever they want and this being in more than just golf clubs ( and also in race circles ) i am a white South African i am also a British citizen and had nothing to do with the previous opressions in this country ( and neither did my parents or grandparents for that matter) but i get treated the same as everyone else in this country my feeling DEAL WITH IT OR GET OUT i personally will be getting out when my fiance has finished her studies until then i will grin a bear ‘some’ people’s idiotic misconceptions of opression
August 18th, 2005 at 4:53 pm
Well I’m starting my own club…with beer, and hookers, and NONE of you can join, only horses, horses with grey hair and spots, because that’s the niche market advertisers want. We are a group of young and vibrant horses with flat hair because that sells shampoo. We will also be washing the hair of horses without hooves to make it flat. Your clubs don’t wash hair, you leave people in the streets with bouncy hair. Now hunger is their only problem thanks to our progressive horse course.
August 25th, 2005 at 3:01 pm
I completed my degree in SA and a week later I started my first job in Europe. I wasn’t exposed to AA or discriminated against as so many of my white friends. I am an objective South African, a precious luxury. Live and let live I believe.
The one and only thing that scares me most and prevents me more than anything from going back to good old SA is that some people think they are better than others and proud of it and to celebrate this acquired “pride” they create clubs.
The difference between having sexual-orientated and religious organisations and race exclusive organisations is that one has a choice. Choosing your skin colour is not. Go on Clive and friends – I really enjoy your explanations (attempts). My colleagues at work think it is a joke, and some of them are black. Doesn’t that say something?
Cheers Jo’ies…you’re always in my mind…
October 16th, 2005 at 9:37 am
Yeah, God blessed us all with the ability to speak, read and write. With that comes debate. And debate, at least, allows the exchange of opinions. And with the exchange of opinions come understanding(if you’re open minded that is).
The above started with a man who considered himself high and mighty in his exclusive club (that’s certainly not new) and the debate was stirred by another who resents is (that is also not new).
The good Lord also gave us the ability to choose. I choose to turn away from it, in the same way I chose to take up employment outside my country of birth because a) Seems like we are appreciated more and taxed less. b) I don’t have to face this kind of endless debate………..
Lovely country and I will return one day, when all have run out of steam arguing aimlessly.
November 15th, 2005 at 5:09 pm
I still believe the point of Clive is correct. Not because it seems like a matter of racism or something, just because it is the responsibility and the will of a particular society or a group of people, regardless of their race or color of skin, to select or reject the members on any basis they choose. No one else should have right to raise fingers on this, giving it a hype and malign the intentions.
I don’t find anything bad in someone doing something good for his race and disallowing others to relish results of his own efforts.
- Blacks
November 15th, 2005 at 8:09 pm
I for one love the idea, as a student and a soon to be upward bound member of corporate america I look forward to being “elitist”, Having a group of like minded peers in a socially exclusive enviroment is something whites have enjoyed for centurys. I say “about damn time”.
November 18th, 2005 at 9:38 am
I am disgusted. I have decided that I don’t give a damn if I am called a racist anymore. Blacks have made me that way. I have developed a racial hate for the beings and they have lost all credibility with me. Thanks to the NEW South Africa for CREATING a racist. This is BULL and I have had enough. If black want to hate use then guess what, I WILL hate right back!
PS: My house is a WHITES ONLY zone.
November 18th, 2005 at 9:47 am
Dude, that’s crazy talk, don’t write off three quarters of our population because of a handful rich-boy golfers.
The point of the post was that if we’re going to get anywhere, we need to move away from racial discrimination altogether. Sadly, in a country with our history we cant have the half-measures that could be readily acceptable elsewhere…!
November 18th, 2005 at 1:01 pm
at tech we always said,”we’re [whites] are presently disadvantaged.”
ja,well, what can you do. hopefully we’ll come right before we head down zimbo’s path…
November 19th, 2005 at 9:37 pm
C’on Dominic, you bastard, I also want in on that club !!! I have flat grey hair spots on my ass and a dick like a horse……so uhm, you mentioned something about hookers and beer ???
Headroom6, yeah boy, an attitude like that is All the country needs…..you mentioned your house is a “whites only zone”….except for the maid and the gardener right ?
Guys, South Africans have always been elitist and pretensions snobs, just because it’s a black elitist / pretensions snobby club, peeps are getting fired up
)
November 25th, 2005 at 2:33 am
Unbelieveable…
And I thought Racism was dying.
We need more clubs like this to keep on fighting.
Why would we ever want to move on?
November 29th, 2005 at 1:25 pm
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November 29th, 2005 at 1:31 pm
Dude, what the fuck?
December 2nd, 2005 at 2:07 am
South Africa, it’s a pretty one. I for one can’t see black leaders in South Africa doing any better than the corrupt bunch of murdering thugs who run the rest of Africa. I notice South Africa’s recent support for Zimbabwee and that lovable despot Mugabe, to the extent of offering him a huge loan(there going to pay it back?) to attempt to bail out his crimininal mismanagement of his country is good black economic management. Simple fact is once Mandela dies South Africa will be asset stripped by the same type of lunatic thugs who’ve brought the rest of Africa to its knees. The leader of Uganda, now he’s interestingly typical as his slide into corruption gathers apace.
Surely that’s more important than who gets to play golf with who? How are we going to find enough black people to run one single little tiny country properly?
Once we’ve done that, then we’ll worry about the golf.
December 2nd, 2005 at 10:12 am
Lol !!! and Sean thought, ok boys, this is the time and place to pitch a sale
December 7th, 2005 at 7:20 pm
Program on the emergence of civilization.
“14 species of large animals capable of domesitcation in the history of mankind.
13 from Europe, Asia and northern Africa.
None from the sub-Saharan African continent. ”
Favor.
And disfavor.
They point out Africans’ failed attempts to domesticate the elephant and zebra, the latter being an animal they illustrate that had utmost importance for it’s applicability in transformation from a hunting/gathering to agrarian-based civilization.
The roots of racism are not of this earth.
Austrailia, aboriginals:::No domesticable animals.
The North American continent had none. Now 99% of that population is gone.
AIDS in Africa.
Organizational Heirarchy/Levels of positioning.
Heirarchical order, from top to bottom:
1. MUCK – perhaps have experienced multiple universal contractions (have seen multiple big bangs), creator of the artificial intelligence humans ignorantly refer to as “god”
2. Perhaps some mid-level alien management
3. Evil/disfavored aliens – runs day-to-day operations here and perhaps elsewhere
Terrestrial management/positioning:
4. Chinese/egyptians – this may be separated into the eastern and western worlds
5. Romans – The seamless transition between Cleopatra and Julius Ceasar may be a clue alluding to a partnership.
6. Mafia – the real-world 20th century interface that constantly turns over generationally so as to reinforce the widely-held notion of mortality
7. Jews, corporation, women, politician – Evidence exisits to suggest mafia management over all these groups.
Movies foreshadowing catastrophy
1985 James Bond View to a Kill 1989 San Francisco Loma Prieta earthquake.
Our society gives clues to the system in place. We all have heard the saying “He has more money than god.” There is also an episode of the Simpsons where god meets Homer and says “I’m too old and rich for this.”
This is the system on earth because this is the system everywhere.
20 cent/hour Chinese labor, 50 cents for material.
An $80 sweater costs less than a dollar; homage, tribute kicked upstairs vindicates the creative accounting.
I don’t want to suggest the upper eschelons are evil and good is the fringe. But these individuals become wealthy exploiting those they hurt.
They have made it abundantly clear that doing business with evil (disfavored) won’t help people. They say only good would have the ear, since evil is struggling for survival, and therefore only the favored could help.
The clues are there which companies are favored and which are disfavored, but they conceal it very hard because it is so crucial.
I offer an example of historical proportions:::
People point to Walmart and cry “anti-union”.
Unions enable disfavored people to live satisfactorly without addressing their disfavor. This way their family’s problems are never resolved. Without the union they would have to accept the heirarchy, their own inferiority.
Unions serve to empower.
Walmart is anti-union because they are good. They try to help people address and resolve their problems by creating an enviornment where there are fewer hurdles.
Media ridicule and lawsuits are creations to reinforce people’s belief that Walmart is evil in a subsegment of the indistry dominated by the middle and lower classes.
Low-cost disfavored Chinese labor is utilized by corporate america to maximize margins. They all do it. Only WalMart gets fingered because they are the ones who help, and those who seek to create confusion in the marketplace want to eliminate the vast middle class who have a real chance and instead stick with lower classes who may not work otherwise. So they dirty him up while allowing the others to appear clean.
The middle class is being deceived. They are being misled into the unfavored, and subsequently will have no assistance from their purchases with corporate america.
The coining of the term “Uncle Sam” was a clue alluding to just this::Sam Walton and WalMart is one of few saviors of the peasant class.
Amercia is a country of castoffs, rejects. Italy sent its criminals, malcontents.
Between the thrones, the klans and kindred, they “decided” who they didn’t want and acted, creating discontent and/or starvation.
The u.s. is full of disfavored rejects. It is the reason for the myriad of problems not found in European countries. As far as the Rockafellers and other industrialists of the 19th century go, I suspect these aren’t their real names. I suspect they were chosen to go and head this new empire.
Royalty is the right way to organize a society. Dictatorships and monarchies are a reflection of the antient’s hierarchical organization.
Positions go to those who have favor with the rulers, as opposed to being elected.
Elections bring a false sense of how the world is. Democracy misleads people.
Which is why the disfavored rejects were sent to the shores of America::To keep them on the wrong path.
Jews maim the body formed in the image of “god”, and inflicted circumsision upon all other white people, as well as the evil that is Jewsus Christ.
I think about how Jews (were used to) created homosexuality among Slavics, retribution for the Holocaust.
Then I think of the Catholic Church and its troubles.
What connection is here between Jews and the Catholic church???
If it is their sinister motives that’s behind the evil that is Jesus Christ are they being used at all?
Perhaps it is them who are pulling strings.
Their centuries of slavery in Egypt proves their disfavor.
The Jew leaders decided to prey on the up-and-coming Europeans to try to fix their problems with the ruling elite, a recurring aspect of the elite’s methodology.
Jews were ostracised for a reason.
Jewsus Christ is a religious figure of evil. The seperatist churches formed so they could still capture the rest of the white people, keeping them worshipping the wrong god.
And now they do it to disfavored people of color, Latinos and Asians, after centuries of preying upon them.
Since Buddism doesn’t recongnize a god, the calls are never heard, and Chinese representation is instead selected by the thrones.
Budda was the Asian’s Jesus Christ::: bad for the people. “They came up at the same time for a reason.”
Simpson’s foreshadowing::Helloween IV special, Flanders is Satan. “Last one you ever suspect.”
“You’ll see lots of nuns where you’re going:::hell!!!” St. Wigham, Helloween VI, missionary work, destroying cultures.
Over and over, the Simpsons was a source of education and enlightenment, a target of ridicule by the system which wishes to conceal its secrets.
The advent of the modern Christmas was a brilliant move. It creates a vested interest among those who would prefer the Church of Evil be destroyed::::
As goes the Catholic Church so goes the majority of annual retail sales.
The similarity between the names “Santa” and “Satan” is no coincidence.
I believe Islam is the one true religion, and those misled christians who attack “god”‘s most favored people will pay dearly one day.
December 15th, 2005 at 11:06 am
I am a 20 year old white south african male…. that makes me the lowest form of life in my country….
Because politicians busied themselves with bullshit (apartheid) I have to pay the price… I can’t get a job because of AA (or employment equity…how the fuck can you call it employment EQUITY). I can’t open a business, because of BEE ( I can get a lease on premises, I can’t get any government contracts).
My parents were against apartheid. They voted ‘YES’ in the election to give rights to black citizens. What more do you want from me? I didn’t even know apartheid existed.
So I am a presenyly disadvantaged individual….
But I am also previously disadvantaged….apartheid had an adverse effect on the SA economy, restricting my parents’ economic activity, which has an impact on my present economic position.
FUCK BEE, FUCK EE, FUCK AA! That is just the easy way for UNqualified and UNdeserving blacks to gain economic advantage over others…
And do you know who is screwed the most by AA… hard working black people… If a highly qualified black person gets a job or contract (based on merit) everyone doubts him or her…..
December 15th, 2005 at 11:06 am
I am a 20 year old white south african male…. that makes me the lowest form of life in my country….
Because politicians busied themselves with bullshit (apartheid) I have to pay the price… I can’t get a job because of AA (or employment equity…how the fuck can you call it employment EQUITY). I can’t open a business, because of BEE ( I can get a lease on premises, I can’t get any government contracts).
My parents were against apartheid. They voted ‘YES’ in the election to give rights to black citizens. What more do you want from me? I didn’t even know apartheid existed.
So I am a presenyly disadvantaged individual….
But I am also previously disadvantaged….apartheid had an adverse effect on the SA economy, restricting my parents’ economic activity, which has an impact on my present economic position.
FUCK BEE, FUCK EE, FUCK AA! That is just the easy way for UNqualified and UNdeserving blacks to gain economic advantage over others…
And do you know who is screwed the most by AA… hard working black people… If a highly qualified black person gets a job or contract (based on merit) everyone doubts him or her…..
December 15th, 2005 at 11:06 am
I am a 20 year old white south african male…. that makes me the lowest form of life in my country….
Because politicians busied themselves with bullshit (apartheid) I have to pay the price… I can’t get a job because of AA (or employment equity…how the fuck can you call it employment EQUITY). I can’t open a business, because of BEE ( I can get a lease on premises, I can’t get any government contracts).
My parents were against apartheid. They voted ‘YES’ in the election to give rights to black citizens. What more do you want from me? I didn’t even know apartheid existed.
So I am a presenyly disadvantaged individual….
But I am also previously disadvantaged….apartheid had an adverse effect on the SA economy, restricting my parents’ economic activity, which has an impact on my present economic position.
FUCK BEE, FUCK EE, FUCK AA! That is just the easy way for UNqualified and UNdeserving blacks to gain economic advantage over others…
And do you know who is screwed the most by AA… hard working black people… If a highly qualified black person gets a job or contract (based on merit) everyone doubts him or her…..
December 15th, 2005 at 11:06 am
I am a 20 year old white south african male…. that makes me the lowest form of life in my country….
Because politicians busied themselves with bullshit (apartheid) I have to pay the price… I can’t get a job because of AA (or employment equity…how the fuck can you call it employment EQUITY). I can’t open a business, because of BEE ( I can get a lease on premises, I can’t get any government contracts).
My parents were against apartheid. They voted ‘YES’ in the election to give rights to black citizens. What more do you want from me? I didn’t even know apartheid existed.
So I am a presenyly disadvantaged individual….
But I am also previously disadvantaged….apartheid had an adverse effect on the SA economy, restricting my parents’ economic activity, which has an impact on my present economic position.
FUCK BEE, FUCK EE, FUCK AA! That is just the easy way for UNqualified and UNdeserving blacks to gain economic advantage over others…
And do you know who is screwed the most by AA… hard working black people… If a highly qualified black person gets a job or contract (based on merit) everyone doubts him or her…..
December 15th, 2005 at 11:06 am
I am a 20 year old white south african male…. that makes me the lowest form of life in my country….
Because politicians busied themselves with bullshit (apartheid) I have to pay the price… I can’t get a job because of AA (or employment equity…how the fuck can you call it employment EQUITY). I can’t open a business, because of BEE ( I can get a lease on premises, I can’t get any government contracts).
My parents were against apartheid. They voted ‘YES’ in the election to give rights to black citizens. What more do you want from me? I didn’t even know apartheid existed.
So I am a presenyly disadvantaged individual….
But I am also previously disadvantaged….apartheid had an adverse effect on the SA economy, restricting my parents’ economic activity, which has an impact on my present economic position.
FUCK BEE, FUCK EE, FUCK AA! That is just the easy way for UNqualified and UNdeserving blacks to gain economic advantage over others…
And do you know who is screwed the most by AA… hard working black people… If a highly qualified black person gets a job or contract (based on merit) everyone doubts him or her…..
December 15th, 2005 at 11:09 am
South Africa is the best!
Fuck you, white mother fuckers!
I drive my Audi and enjoy my job!
SA will have been a better place if no white dog has ever comed here!!!
Jacob Zuma RuleZZZZ!
December 15th, 2005 at 12:23 pm
Hey “Previously & Currently Disadvantaged Individual” do me a favour bro, please tell Santi that her attitude sucks (I assume you live together as both comments on this post came through minutes after each other, from the same IP address: 146.182.82.218). Not cool bro.
It’s time you get that chip off your shoulder, so you’re 20 and white, but dont fool yourself, you can get a job if you try, you can start a company, and you can get a lease, the colour of your skin is simply not a good enough excuse.
So stop looking for an excuse and get your shit together, moaning about the situation isn’t going to help anyone, least of all you. Yeah, you’re gonna have to work harder than people did in the past to prove yourself, but hey, that’s not really a bad thing…!
March 14th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
When and how will this country start acting against racism (even small amounts)? Is there a way that this discussion can turn into something more than just words? Is there an active group that searches for discrimination (white or black) and takes the culprits to court and punishes them?
What does the government use as a measurement on the success of BEE, EE, AA? Is it something contrete in the line of: During Apartheid white ppl earned R500 Billion through white only business, so, we’ll punish them until blacks have earned as much, or, during Apartheid 500 thousand blacks were killed (or died from hunger etc), so well carry on with what we are busy with until the same amount of whites have died? How can anyone justify this…
Why can’t opening the doors be enough? Allow everyone access to education. If he/she can’t pay, allow them the same access to scholarships, sponserships etc. If a job is available, allow the best one to get it. This way, in lets say one generation, things will be better for everyone. If you are lazy, doesn’t matter what your skin looks like, you should have a hard time…
Or, in 140 years time, is everything going to turn around again, we’ll (whites) be the PDI’s of SA, and everything will just start over again? It sure seems like it if we carry on pointing fingers… (and starting exclusive clubs just because “its not nearly as bad as what you did to us”). This sounds more and more like the arguments I had with my sister when I was young. Revenge is bitter.
Apartheid is still alive and kicking from everything I have seen since my entry into society (which incidently happened after the ANC won.)
I HATE RACISM
September 30th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
Let them segregate themselves.
http://www.allwhitedating.com
November 23rd, 2006 at 12:04 am
BEE = RACISM
Build a better society, fix what is broken, don’t repeat the stupid fucking mistakes that have turned this country into a never-ending warzone.
P.S. Santi, I hope you die. Pig.
December 15th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Some of the comments i read make me realise how the roles have switched in the country…BEE = apartheid reversed.
Look at this santi…you can take em out the bush (into an audi) but you can’t take the bush outta them.
I only drink decaffinated coffee
January 25th, 2007 at 9:48 am
It’s funny how every white person I meet these days makes it a point to tell me that they were an anti-apertheid activist in some way or other. Now if all of you were so actively against apartheid then why did it take so long to fall. SA was on the brink of full on civil war b4 negotiations with ANC began. I saw a comment on this page that we’ve had democracy for 13 years now “how much more must we(whites) give you(blacks)” Believe me when I say that BEE and AA haven’t done nearly enough to redress past injustices. Mandela and the ANC let you off way too easily with that TRC complete disclosure and Amnesty bullshit! People please don’t kid yourselves by thinking you(whites) are being generous by reluctantly complying with BEE and AA requirements you are only giving back what is rightfully ours and in the past 13yrs you haven’t even begun to make a dent in the interest thats accrued let alone scratch the surfice of the capital debt thats owing.
When I look for a job it’s still a white man I’m trying to impress(and this is africa aint that weird) were it not for BEE or AA white employers(who are the majority) would still feel more comfortable hiring one of their own instead of a black man regardless whether black man is highly educated from the so called top institutions.
I think our government should embark on Zimbabwean style asset repossessions.
ITS THE ONLY WAY
January 26th, 2007 at 11:21 am
HEY ALL YOU BLACK MOTHER FUCKERS.YOUR DAY OF DARKNESS WILL DAWN ON YOU SOON.
January 26th, 2007 at 11:37 am
What a brilliant country we live in. We have so much going for this country and so much oppurtunity and yet we all proceed in a manner in which we will fuck it up.
Stop, take a good look at yourself in the mirror and if you can wake up in the morning and respect that face, you will have made a tremendous difference.
Then maybe we can all move on.
Enough about the racism bullshit. If they (the golf club) want to start a Blacks only club – fuck em let them do it. The other normal people in this life will move on and in 5 years there little club will still be where it started.
Fuck this irritates me. Its amazing that clever young people (white or black or pink or purple) still have the time to waste on this bullshit.
MOVE ON – MOVE ON.
January 26th, 2007 at 11:57 am
I am really now very scared. I might actually meet someone like wit wolf in my daily business.
What an insight he would be to us all.
January 26th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
Our day of darkness will come. Tell me Mr Wit Wolf do you Boeremag folk really believe that mess written by siennar van renburg. Stop smoking your socks chief the day of darkness is here the day of black rule, Die Swart gevaar you’ve been fearing has arrived. And we aint never going back
January 27th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
eh, long-winded debate.
I am white, Afrikaans/Italian. I am half decedent from the Afrikaner terror era that forced all the wrong upon you (PDA folk). Automatically, I must be the same and apparently I hate all coloured people. ( I have no say, it is forced upon me )
I am not African, seeing as though I am white and only black people can be African. Afrian-Americans are more African than I am. ( So I have been told ) Even though most of them have never set foot in Africa.
However, in my mind ( at least ) I am an African, I am a South African and I have no problem, whatsoever, with any coloured people.
Apartheid is not here anymore. Racism is. (there is a difference you know) It is also in every other country in the world. Anybody who has the ability to make sly racial remarks (such as the above) are all inclined to be a wee bit racist.
Once people like you learn to shuttup and lift up the blinds in front of your eyes, we might see some ‘progress’ (said almost like there hasnt been any at all) (PLEASE).
Stop being so fucking impatient.
April 5th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Just read thru the post and all the replies etc. What strikes me here as it does in most place is the complete refusal from white people to acknowledge the past wrongs they have inflicted on scores of nations around the world. The catholic church (bless it for all its faults) has an apt phrase: “MEA CULPA”.
The most ridiculous has to be the “the past is the past so let’s move on” from white people as soon as they are reminded of this.
Let’s just get this straight: you can’t sum up over 300 years of oppression under foreigners as “the past”. That shit is too simplistic.
This goes out to all those people who never physically took part in the Colonial/Apartheid establishments. While that may very well be the case, what is also the undeniable case is that they are beneficiaries of the same legacies.
Furthermore, say we entertain the second favourite line that “it’s been 12 [however many] years since democracy, get over it already”. Once again, you cannot possibly expect to fix a problem that took over three centuries to unfold in a mere 12 years? That is silly to say the least.
This same line magically disappears when conversation turns to crime, “corruption” and all the other ills of the new dispensation.
I have a white friend who screams reverse racism whenever we have such discussions and this often leaves me somethat offended and confused.
Don’t get me wrong, “reverse racism” is probable, but what’s notable about it is that it is a reactionary in nature. This is unlike “original” racism, which is based on [shall I wager to say] unrealistic beliefs of superiority over others and the subjugation of the latter through physical and psychological violence.
April 6th, 2007 at 7:45 am
A lot of people in these comments talk about “reverse racism”. I think it’s wrong. “Using the “reverse racism” only reinforce prejudices against white people.
It would be more accurate to talk about “anti-white-racism”
Please check my webpage on “reverse racism Vs anti-white racism
April 12th, 2007 at 2:42 am
people,racism will never end…so just live with it…its a reality of human form.
there will always be an ‘us’ and ‘them’…sorry to say, but its the truth.
April 27th, 2007 at 1:39 pm
ALL U BLACK IDIOTS ENJOY. YOUR TIME IS RUNING OUT
April 27th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
PRIMO dont fear the Boeremag. FEAR whites like me
2010
Your time is runing out
May 25th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
gawd, first its golf, then flyfishing, soon it will be duck hunting. What on earth happened to football? Come on chaps soon you’ll all be out in the streams casting merrily away while 11 white boys kick Italy’s arse on the pitch.
May 28th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White,Black, White…..Take a break. Have a kit-kat!
May 31st, 2007 at 10:00 am
it’s discusting that people are still on about apartheid. the only way to get this working is if you sarcastic fucks stop posting our for farthers decissions and learn that our generations’ own. We all changed this country 13 years ago and we need to start looking foward together and not walk backwards apart. Cause you are the ones taking us down with you’ll. IDIOTS!!!
July 13th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Apartheid, and colonialism before are used to justify BEE – however these things did not create the inequality. When the British arrived, they did not discover a highly advanced culture, and then proceed to suppress anyone. There was no modern economy. It is insane to say that black people were somehow deprived economically, when they did not have an economy. They only realised they were missing something after colonisation, not before. Weird logic drives BEE.
July 13th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Everyone refers to 300 years. 300 years in the Cape perhaps, definetely nowhere near 300 years for the whole country. Gauteng, and KZN, about a century and a half.
July 14th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
This may sound a bit counter-intuitive, but the basic issue here is really freedom. A group of black people – private individuals and companies – should be allowed to create exclusive golf clubs or whatever. Likewise, our FREEDOM dictates that a group of white people – white corporations, white individuals, should be allowed to create whites-only clubs. NO PROBLEM. Freedom of association. There is nothing wrong with wanting to hang around people of your own culture, and it doesn’t make you a racist for wanting to – either way (no human of any race “naturally” prefers hanging around people of different cultures more than they prefer hanging around people of their own and it is NOT racism).
Where it becomes “wrong” is (a) when the government becomes involved, or (b) only certain groups are “allowed” (which again in fact implies government) to do this kind of thing. Freedom is for everyone, or else it isn’t freedom.
“Previously disadvantaged” is clearly a bullshit rationalisation / justification for racist behaviour in this case though. The correct response from the black guy would’ve been that that is what freedom is about, and that whites are also free to create their own exclusive clubs. Even though the motive here is racism though, it differs from apartheid in that apartheid involved GOVERNMENT (and their monopoly on power) to enforce and selectively enforce restrictions.
The notion of freedom should always be at close call when responding, or deciding how to respond to, things like this.
July 14th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
It’s a good question though as to whether South African “freedom” extends as far as allowing exclusive whites-only golf clubs. I’m not sure. Obviously it SHOULD (particularly as blacks-only clubs are clearly allowed), or it isn’t freedom. I wish someone would “test” this (i.e. by creating something like a whites-only golf club, and then defending it in the legal system if attacked). We need to know if we have actual freedom or just oppression (of whites) here.
July 14th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Well, Beau Brummel tried, and failed, granted, he through naked willies into the mix…!
August 4th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Pretoria – Police have lashed out a massage campaign warning whites that blacks will attack them when former preident Nelson Mandela dies, saying they are without substance.
National commissioner of police spokesperson Sally de Beer said the messages also incited whites to prepare to congregate at pre – identified “safe areas” and to defend themselves accordingly.
De beer said: “the messages from part of a disinformation campaign and publicity stunt by a group known as the suidlanders, under the leadership of one Gustav Muller”.
So what happens now?
September 1st, 2007 at 1:52 am
Shabba!
September 2nd, 2007 at 10:26 am
The Egyptians and their Pharaohs tried inter-breeding and see what happened. Their descendents were born morons.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:33 am
Come on Wondering girl, do you really believe in what you’re saying?
November 25th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Blacks live in ignorance off their past , they must look at the rest of africa.The white man has left africa and its falling apart. Most of Europe is sick off Africa they don’t have the capacity to even feed themselves.
If everything is falling apart around them they blame the white man. If that does not work they fall back to their tribal roots and blame one another. The cannot take responsibility for any of their own actions.
February 2nd, 2008 at 9:13 am
pre teen pageant gown
February 4th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
hey good comments people but, racism will always b around! people dont lie change and difference.Racism will only stop wen all races have died out and only one colour of skin is visible..probably in about 2000-3000 yrs! Even then ppl will still fight over other things..The human race loves to argue and moan about how the are worse off then others..BUT THATS LIFE!!
February 9th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
IS THERE ANYTHiNG ELSE THAT YOU BLACKS CANT FUCK UP??
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Racism still exists in this country if we stil have people like “wit wolf” and “white fuck” in this country. i mean wat crapy names they have it just brings out their true personality. it’s OK blacks are still and they are here for a LONG LONG while we’ve ruled a decade and more and we are here to stay so GET USED TO IT!!!!!
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January 28th, 2010 at 2:38 pm
How can I be racist if I am white? maybe theer is 15 years of reedom but its 15 years of unberable crime, curruption, racism, murder, rape, killing babies, killing kids, killing woman. My dad or any of my family never did anything bad to the blacks in apardheid time. I never even knew what it was, all I know is that blacks hate me for what a presedent did?????? How then can I be a racist if I am white? It’s you who hate me!
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